The student refused to show his ID, refused to leave the library, and encouraged others to resist. The cops tasered him and of course the cops are the bad guys. Are you freaking kidding me. If he shows his ID then this never happens. Of course students do not feel safe now from the RACIST cops.
This writer (former cop) expresses views similiar to mine on situations like these.
By the way - What is the alternative? Do the cops forcefully drag him out of the library? Do they just let him go? Do they not do a routine check of ID's? Then the campus would be real safe right? It is so IRONIC becuase the students say they want to feel safe, and that is what the cops were trying to provide by doing ROUTINE ID checks.
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I'm going to have to strenuously disagree with you on this one. Obviously the guy was being a contrarian asshole, and we should all feel free to dislike him for that; however, I don't need the Constitution to protect me when I'm conforming and being smart and pleasant (since no one will try to stop me from doing that), I need the Constitution to protect me when I'm being a contrarian asshole (Sophist, I'm sure you can relate).
What gives the police the right to taser this kid? First of all, I very much doubt there's any law that says you're allowed to tazer anyone who's being rude to you if you're a cop. Maybe you can taser someone if they're resisting arrest, but the kid wasn't being arrested- after all, there's no law against refusing to show the police ID just becuase they ask for it (This isn't Apartheid Africa where we all have to have our papers on us at all times).
Furthermore, remember this all took place on private property, and the owner of tha property (university president?) wasn't consulted before someone was tasered on his property because they raised their voice.
Seriously, I don't think there was any law that empowered those cops to REQUIRE ID checks, no law that would empower them to tell the student to leave the premises without first contacting the owner of the property, and certainly no law that would allow them to traser someone just for talking back to them. And I am incredibly uncomfortable with the cops going around assaulting people who are being difficult but not breaking any laws. As a libertarian, I'm shocked that you can be so blase about this.
First of all I am guessing there are rules for security to check ID. We have them at our school - it is the reason students have to carry their ID. Second he refused to show ID. What should cops do? I would say they should ask him to leave if he would not show id becuase he might not be a student and as security you are making sure students are safe and not allowing people who are not supposed be on campus on campus.
So now the student refuses to leave. I should be careful with the word student - becuase the cops at this point do not know if this man is a student or not. So the cops ask this man to leave. The man refuses to leave. The man starts yelling in the school library and tries to get students to see what is going on and join his little rebellion. Once again what should the cops do? They have a man that refuses to show id, refuses to leave, and it now getting hostile and encouraging others to join. What should they do sersiously?
Cops had to make a decision.
This guy can be there to casue trouble. What if the guy had a gun and shot the ceileing or a student. He could have been this troubled guy and was going to cause trouble. If the cops did nothing and he did something win a gun or harmed someone they would get in trouble by the campus for not protecting the students. The cops are in a lose lose.
The safest play was to get that man out of the library and if we not going willingling then they needed to use force.
Assuming that there were standing procedures pot in place by the university that allowed the cops to ask for ID and allowed them to ask anyone who didn't provide ID to leave, they should have advised him specifically of those rules, informed him that they were empowered to remove him using force, nd if he still didn't leave, remove him forcefully while making a specific effort to harm him as little as possible.
I don't know if you've ever tried to wrestle a cop, but I have.
It's like trying to subdue a brick wall with your forehead. They do years of training (both straight excercise for muscle and specific self-defense and grappling courses)to be able to restrain and move someone without injuring them or putting themselves at risk. They could have removed that guy without hurting him (and tasers HURT LIKE FUCK and can be fatal if you have certain types of medical implants , which the cops there couldn't have known), and if their waas just one cop there and he was afraid to tackle this civilian alone, he should have called for enough backup to do things right.
The argument here is not 'there was nothing else the cops could have done' because obviously they could have removed him from the premises without hurting him. The argument is 'this kid was being an asshole so I don't feel bad that the cops hurt him' and that argument will never fly with me. It just puts way way too much discretioanry power over law-abiding citizens into the government's hand.
So they cops need to explain their actions to everyone before they do something. Cops might not always have the time. That is why there are rules books and codes of conduct that others can look up if they need to - but cops sometimes have to make fast decisions. This time they made a decision after repeatedly asking him to leave and while he is gathering others. So the cops see all these other students come over and they made a fast decision to stop this mess by tasering the kid - showing all the others to not get out of control.
You never commented either about what if this person was not astudent and was crazy. What if he did hurt someone.
We pay cops to make decisions. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. But when they act on the side of safety then I am okay with it. They thoguth this was the safest play given the circumstances.
Remember NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPPENED if the kid just showed his ID. None of it. None of it.
So cops have to abide by all these rules but students dont.
Quoting Darwin
"It just puts way way too much discretioanry power over law-abiding citizens into the government's hand."
You uncomfortable with giving the state power to rough up a an obvious agitator primarly attempting to make a political point:
1. However giving the state the power over all firearms is okay
2. Giving the state the power tax discriminatly for resditribution purposes is okay.
diatribe:
I recognize that sometimes cops have to make fast and tough decisions or someone gets hurt. But in this case they made the wrong decision and I want there to be consequences so that it won't happen again. Thiswasn'ta high-speed car chase or a hostage situation, this was a guy standing around yelling. If he had suddenlyreachedinto his pocket then I would have said they're right to take him down beforehe could potentially pull a weapon, but there's video of thios incident and nothing like that happened.
If this guy did anything that could potentially bedangerousor threatening, I'd say sure, take him down to protect everyone. But that didn't happen. If the cop was honestly afraid he might be armed then the cop could haved drawn his gun to cover the guy and called for backup. If he didn't think the guy was dangerous, then there's no excuse for tasering him.
"So the cops see all these other students come over and they made a fast decision to stop this mess by tasering the kid - showing all the others to not get out of control."
I can't believe that you're saying the cops should assault people in orderto intimidate law-abiding citizens and control innocent civilians through fear.
"Remember NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPPENED if the kid just showed his ID."
Yeah, and that girl wouldn't have gotten raped if she wasn't at that party, and that guy wouldn't have gotten mugged if he wasn't in that neighborhood alone... That doesn't excuse the assailant.
"So cops have to abide by all these rules but students dont. "
Everyone has to obey the rules. That guy had to obey therule of 'show your id or get escorted off the premises." And the cop had to obeythe rule of 'don't assault people unless it's the ONLY WAY to prevent them from HURTING SOMEONE.'
Thereis NO rule that says 'if you're a cop and someone is being impolite to you, you get to taser them." If we had that rule in this country I'd get my ass to Canada before the citizen detainment camps started sprining up.
Sophist: Yes I am much more worried about the government using it's power to actually injure law-abiding citizensthan I am about them controlling weapons or redistributing wealth. I'm sure if you got tasered for being a jackass you'd have similar priorities.
So I saw the video and I feel like it only strengthens my argument. First off after hours at the library you have to a ID so campus safety knows only students are in the library and not sick fucks. SHOW YOUR ID.
So this kid is purposely looking for trouble. He wanted to get into trouble. He was purposely looking for something like this to happen so he could make a politcal statement.
I mean after he gets tasered he shouts about the Patriot Act. How many people do you know that when they get shocked are thinking about the Patriot Act. LOL. He had that planned for a while. I doubt natural reaction to getting shocked is GET YOUR PATRIOT ACT OFF ME. This makes this guy even more of a dickhead. He wanted the trouble, he watned the attention, he wanted to make a political statement and he did it by getting these cops into trouble they do not deserve.
Yeah no shit. Of course he was looking for this. The entire point of civil disobedience is to do something that angers your government but does not give them the right to brutalize you, under that government's own laws, then show that the government has become corrupt and dangerous because it oversteps it's own laws in order to brutalize you. If this was a politically motivated action then it proved his point perfectly.
Could he had angered the security in a way that does not hurt the future security of the students at the library? If his action is okay then others will do it and security will stop trying as hard to look for people who do not belong. Then when someone who comes in who is not supposed to be there security does not ask to show ID and god for bid rapes some girl, shoots some guy, or just harms another person. Do you not feel it can set up that precedent. And then there will be more strict rules in place for that library then there is now. What the cops were asking is not a big deal. The law of that library is to protect students who belong from those who do not. So do you believe that by doing what this guy did he might have actually made the security of the library less safe? Was there a better way he could have made a political statment? Was there a better way he could have been civily disobediant?
College repulbicans from Boston wanted the debate on race based scholarships and they did it in a way where nobody was going to lose thier jobs, nobody was being disrespected. Mainstream media picked it up and now they talk about it. With this there is no talk about racial profiling, or overprotective cops. It was all about police brutality and racist cops. Cultures needing to be respected. I am comfortable with people wanting to make statements - even if I agree or not with the stament. I have more issues with the means to convey the statement. Are you comfortable with his means?
Of course not. When did I ever sya I support this guy? Didn't I say many times that he's an asshole? That doesn't change the fact that the police overstepped their legal authority in order to brutalize him, and I will NEVER be ok with that, even if they're beating the shit out of a convicted child-killer on his way to prison. Now if you want to propose a law that says all convicted child-killers get the shit beaten out of them by the cops, I may well vote for it, but as long as it's illegal I will never be ok with the cops doing it.
So you do not support the student and you do not support the cops actions? Okay.
So the question becomes is there any level at which you would justify the cops behavior? Is there anythign that student could have done that would make you be okay with tasering him?
And if not - why have security? If nobody has to listen to them or obey what they say - lets stop wasting money on cops. If students can say no to a request from the cops, yell at them, ask others to join in, and the cop has to take it - why have him there?
If the kid had physically assaulted someone, or started to draw aa weapon, or basically done anythng else that would legally allow the cops to taser him, then I'd be fine with them tasering him. Not only are the cops there to stop him from doing something dangerous like that, they WERE SUPPOSED TO ESCORT HIM OUT OF THE BUILDING. Just not to assault him while doing so.
You agree the kid was trying to make a political statement? What was it exactly? And was his means the way to that point?
YOU'RE the one who first said his actions were politically motivated. I don't know anything about that, although it wouldn't surprise me. I'm just saying that whatever his motives were, I'm not ok with what the cops did based on his actual actions.
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